“Juliet the Maniac” Is a Raw Portrait of a Bipolar Teenage Girl

When I read Juliet the Maniac this winter, I found that I was no longer alone in my head. Juliet was with me too, her thought processes, her internal monologue. And then I started feeling a third person in my head, too, my own teenage self, woken up from the past by teenage Juliet. I too was a young woman whose mental illnesses were stopping me from engaging in life the way that those around me could, and Juliet Escoria captured this experience with pitch perfect resonance, both specifically for her character and universally in ways that the reader can recognize as their own.

I’ve known of Escoria’s work for a long time, so between that and the overlaps in our writer-network constellations, I was really excited to meet her IRL and discuss a book that I loved so much. The meeting did not disappoint! This interview was cut down from about five times this length, an hour in which we continually veered from the questions I had formulated from the book into digressions on our lives and personal experiences, only to return to the central gem that is Juliet the Maniac.

It’s no surprise to me that this book is resonating so strongly with readers—it’s always hard to know how a book will fare in the world, but Juliet the Maniac is special. If you haven’t read it yet, I hope to do my part in convincing you with this conversation, one of my favorites that I’ve had the pleasure of doing.

Juliet Escoria and I met at a cave-like coffee shop in Williamsburg, not far from where she was staying. We talked about why high school sucks, how mental illness can be seductive, writing a hologram version of herself, and why she doesn’t buy into the trope that sex can change you.


RS: During the weeks I was reading the book, even when I was doing other things, I would still get the internal sense of Juliet in my head. And I was wondering, is that something you intended, that you knew people might be feeling? Did you have a sense of trying to have such a strong internal monologue that it would imbed in people?

JE: What I wanted really to convey was what it felt to be a teenager. It’s weird because Juliet is me but not me, so it was odd to really get a sense of this character that shares a lot of traits with me but is still fictional.

RS: How did you navigate that line between you/not you?

JE: It was tough. I had to think of Juliet as a separate person than me, this mirror image, hologram-type of my personality. At the end of the book where it says “I am still haunted by her,” that was a very real feeling, of having this companion for years who’s this teenage girl who’s like me but not me, so I felt very much, not to sound mystical or whatever, but in communion with this thing that I created, that is based in truth, but not truth.

RS: When the narrator is in high school, I felt like I was getting a very strong commentary on the bad parts of education. The specific example I noted was when the narrator was turning in a paper on Macbeth, and the teacher is trying to be so nice and be like “Oh we could do this or this or this,” but I was like…why don’t you just let her not write the paper! Nothing matters!

JE: I went to a high school that was really highly rated, like Juliet, and it was a complete nightmare for me. I think it was a nightmare for a lot of kids who were outside of the norm, because it was wealthy, so there was a lot of emphasis on appearances, and being good at school and being popular.  As a natural perfectionist it really broke me, so I was glad that our district was big enough to have the continuation school.

Just because you have high test scores and good grades doesn’t mean you’re learning anything or it’s benefitting you in any way.

There’s so many ways to be different, and I think that a lot of high schools don’t account for that. In West Virginia, for example, the schools look radically different in terms of what is the norm, than they do in Southern California. But, still, there’s not a lot of room for people to be outside of that norm. I think that things like alternative schools are really important, and just realizing that people learn in all different ways. Just because you have high test scores and good grades doesn’t mean you’re learning anything or it’s benefitting you in any way. People are kind of rethinking education, but, of course, as in most things, we still have a long way to go.

My mom was a teacher, my dad was a teacher, I’m a teacher, so I do definitely believe in the importance and value of education. But I think it’s a little too rigid. Especially high school. High school sucks.

RS: It’s such a bad time. You captured that so well with the character. High school is probably the first time that so many people realize they have atypical brains. And to then be realizing that while you’re in this really stringent…

JE: Even the routine. I can’t imagine going to a job from 7:30 in the morning until 3:30 in the afternoon, five days a week. That just seems horrible.

RS: You also captured really well the intensity of a teenage friendship and how the progression of them can be so similar to relationships. I hadn’t thought about this in a while, but reading it, those teen friendships, you have one, and you think it’s going to be your big important one, and then one person kind of drops the other and it’s really intense, sad, scary. I don’t know, do adults do that in friendships?

JE: I don’t have that.

RS: I haven’t had it as an adult either! Do you think that is specific to teenagers?

JE: I wanted to represent the interchangeability of friends. I feel like I’ve seen a lot of books about the strangeness and intensity of teenage girl friendships, but it’s like a solid friendship. My experience was very amorphous, of one friend bleeding into another and getting replaced by the other. So that was important to me. It’s fucked up to make generalizations about gender, but I don’t know if teenage boys experience that quite so much. I do think it is practice for romantic relationships, but maybe practice for unhealthy romantic relationships.

I feel like a lot of teenagers could be diagnosed as borderline personality disorder, like a contemporary diagnosis of hysteria.

When I started to become an older teenager, I still had really intense best friendships that would last for a few years, and then be replaced by someone else, but it also happened with boyfriends. It’s a progression of someone who’s not good at emotional relationships. I feel like a lot of teenagers could be diagnosed as borderline personality disorder, kind of like a contemporary diagnosis of hysteria. I think that’s just something a lot of teenagers go through, the symptoms of borderline personality disorder. Basing your personality around a relationship, whether that’s a boyfriend or best friend.

RS: And enjoying the intensity, but not really understanding how much of it is based on the other person. Because then when you drop the person there’s no….at least I remember from my teenage years, I would feel the loss, but the other person I’m like well they clearly don’t care!

You did a great job displaying the phenomena. When I got to college, it never really happened to me again. Never, I don’t think. I’m still in touch with everyone I’ve ever been close with.

How did you write a difference between the friendships at the high school and the friendships at the therapeutic boarding school?

JE: The first friend, Nicole, I didn’t want her to be a bad person or a bad friend, but just a bad match. Like a proximity friendship rather than a “something in common” friendship. The superficial things that people have in common, like music and makeup. And I wanted Holly and Alyson to be more like real friendships, ones based on internal struggles, but still between two very flawed individuals who aren’t always able to help each other because they’re fucked up. Helping and hurting each other at the same time.

RS: That really translates to relationships too. And how that dynamic is not helpful for people in a friendship or a relationship, and it kind of underscores the similarities between intense friendships and relationships.

JE: If your flaws don’t mesh up, you’re going to hurt each other rather than help each other, which is what friendships and relationships are supposed to do.

RS: The dynamic can be so traumatic to a life that’s already lacking consistency. One line that I really noted within the narrator’s friendship with Holly was “my experiences, coming out of someone else’s mouth.” I feel like that is where a really strong friendship begins.

If your flaws in a relationship or friendship don’t mesh up, you’re going to hurt each other rather than help each other.

JE: I felt like such a freak with the bipolar disorder, and I don’t know why because I wasn’t alone in experiencing that. Not every bipolar experience looks like mine, but my friend was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, so I don’t know why I felt like such an alien. But I did have moments like that–moments of recognition–and I wanted Juliet to have moments like that too, feeling like an outsider, but sometimes with a Venn diagram of similarity, and that being significant to her, especially growing up in an area where blond-smiley-tan is the norm.

RS: I think I only became comfortable discussing mental illness and medication with my friends much more recently. Now with my friends here we joke about it, it feels safer than it did when I was a teenager.  

JE: We have come a lot further in terms of stigma, and of mental health treatment. I think part of it too is awareness. I don’t think people were as conscious of what bipolar disorder looked like and the fact that it’s a spectrum, in the nineties. As research for the book, I went through my parents’ old files about me from high school. One of them was a printout of bipolar disorder symptoms from like Yahoo.com, and it seemed so odd that you would need to go on the internet to find really basic information about your daughter’s psychiatric diagnosis and then print it out. Now I am surrounded by people who are versed in mental health issues, so I might not be the most objective, but I feel like people in general are pretty aware of what the basic symptoms of bipolar disorder are.

RS: I loved your line so much about the character getting her first credit card being more significant than losing her virginity. I’ve never read something that expressed that so well, but I had a very similar experience.

JE: I bought into the idea that somehow sex would change you and you could tell just by looking at someone, which is a very corny idea. I really don’t think it matters. I think if we didn’t place such a value on it, then teenage girls like me, teenage girls who are interested in being bad, probably wouldn’t be so interested in having sex. I also feel like that’s seen in literature: “Is the teen character a virgin or is she not a virgin?” That seems like such a stupid distinction, and I didn’t want to play into that binary. But I figured that people would want to know, and that I couldn’t just not acknowledge it.

I was kind of surprised that everyone let me keep that section in the book. I was waiting for [my agent] Monika to tell me to take it out, or for my editor to tell me to take it out, but no one told me to take it out.

RS: I thought it was amazing. I’d never heard it expressed that way. Virginity never seemed as big of a deal to me as emotional intimacy, which I didn’t experience for a while after I first had sex.

JE: That is actually significant, being vulnerable with someone who you’re having sex with. You’re putting yourself in an opportunity to get hurt. Just having sex with a guy that you think is cute, obviously there’s risk in that, but it doesn’t strike me as some sort of important milestone.

RS: There’s anxiety but I think it fades faster than the anxiety of emotional intimacy.

I bought into the idea that somehow sex would change you, which is a very corny idea.

JE: In high school the risk of being branded a slut—I felt like I was, but I don’t know if I actually was. But I wanted that branding. It seemed safe in a way. Teenage girls feeling the need to find themselves clearly marked as “good” or “bad” or somewhere in the middle. A need to categorize things, and categorize themselves, even if that categorization is harmful.

RS: At one point, I felt like being branded as a slut but sexual was better than being branded as not sexual at all. And those were the two options, it felt like.

JE: And it was like, if I go there, then I don’t have to worry about it anymore. I can do what I want. I don’t have to have that “Oh god am I going to turn to the dark side?” panic. Nope, I’m already there.

RS: My next question was talking about the medication, but I already did that! That’s always the best.

JE: We could talk about medication more if you want!

RS: I would love to talk about it more. I hadn’t read a book, at least recently, that went so in depth with it. The part about hair loss, this medication that I’m on now, a risk was hair loss, and that’s the only thing that really freaked me out which is so fucked up that that’s the one that made me so upset, but I was watching it like a hawk.

JE: I think doctors have gotten better than they were when I was first diagnosed about drugging the shit out of you. I feel like I haven’t had a psychiatrist who’s wanted to do that to me in over a decade, so that’s good.

When I was originally diagnosed, you’d be put on medicine that had side effects, and then you’d be medicated to manage the side effects, and it would just go on in this vicious cycle. By the time I was done with the boarding school, I was on at least four psych meds, which is a lot. When I was thirty, my doctor told me that I shouldn’t have any side effects, and if I experienced side effects it meant that I’m not on the right combination. That was mind blowing to me, that a doctor would say, “You deserve to not have side effects,” because it seemed like doctors were like, “Whatever, you’re bipolar, what do you expect?” I think they have gotten away from that line of thought.

RS: That representation of medication is a lot of the reason for me and people I know why we didn’t want to try them in the first place.

Mental illness can be seductive too. Manic episodes are scary, but also fun.

JE: Mental illness can be seductive too. Being bipolar is fun. Manic episodes are fun. They’re scary, but also fun. My brain has tricked me into thinking like “Oh, this medicine is bad for me because it makes this part of me fake.” People are drawn to that, the self-destructive streak, a fear of being totally stable.

RS: And for creative people being like, what if it ruins my creativity. That wasn’t necessarily my biggest fear. I was more lazy. But the thing that really changed me is I was in a really bad situation with a guy, and my mental state was really bad, and after that I was like wow it doesn’t really matter if I “lose” anything, stability is the most important thing.

JE: It took a long time for stability to feel like something I wanted. Sometimes I’ll still get like, “Oh it’d be nice to be manic, maybe I should stop taking my medicine,” and then I have to remind myself of what happens when I am not stable. And it’s just not worth it. I don’t think I’ll ever be normal in terms of my thoughts, and that’s cool, so even if I am stable it’s not like I’m going to turn into some totally normal person. And I like that. I like being bipolar.

RS: It’s amazing how much of this you made come through in the book without it being a straightforward statement.

JE: That was important to me too because I feel like, it’s so easy to lecture. I have a lot of thoughts and theories and issues with things that have happened to me, as anyone would, but I think that’s why I wanted to do a novel as opposed to nonfiction. The urge to lecture is lessened in fiction. So I felt like I was going to be able to say things about class and gender and mental illness stigma and what it means to be a young teenage girl in the world if I tried to be super specific and super honest rather than having a thesis statement.

I wanted to say something about class, because one thing that’s troubled me is, what if my parents didn’t have the means and desire to treat me? I don’t know if I’d be alive. That is disturbing to me. Money plays way too much into if someone has the ability to receive effective treatment. Living in West Virginia has been really frustrating, in terms of seeing what is actually out there for people who are mentally ill. There’s such a limited number of doctors and therapists.

Part of it has simply to do with what’s in your bank account— paying for a therapist, paying for a medication, paying for a therapeutic boarding school—but it’s also having the knowledge of how to navigate the hoops of the mental health system, and the ability to tell doctors that they’re wrong. That’s something that really angers me, how much class does play into mental health treatment and quality.

My psychiatrist in West Virginia, she’s great, one of the best ones I’ve ever had, but she’s an hour away, and if I had a different job, like a nine-to-five job, I don’t know how I’d see her.

There’s so many things that come into play in receiving quality treatment, that I think have to do with situation and class that aren’t fair.

We Deserve Better Than the Live-Action “Aladdin”

I spent the better part of 1993 watching two VHS tapes on endless repeat: Disney’s Aladdin and the lesser-known 1955 MGM musical Kismet. Directed by Vincente Minnelli (Liza’s dad), the latter was an adaptation of a Broadway show of the same name, which married a Cinderella-meets-Arabian-Nights tale with a score pulled, somewhat inexplicably, from the canon of 19th-century Russian composer Alexander Borodin. Growing up in a Syrian-American family, the granddaughter of refugees from a bloody, post-Ottoman Empire Syria, the closest I otherwise got to my roots was a steady diet of kibbeh and stuffed grape leaves.

The Azar family came to America in the generation of assimilation. My great-grandmother Nabiha’s name was changed to the more Americanized Mona. My grandmother and her sister picked up English and abandoned their fluency in Arabic. Because they were both Syrian Christians and fair-skinned, they passed more easily than many of their compatriots, which gave them an advantage in the United States. Instead of passing on our Syrian-ness from one generation to the next, we wholeheartedly embraced our American-ness.

Instead of passing on our Syrian-ness from one generation to the next, we wholeheartedly embraced our American-ness.

Still, it’s hard to be of two worlds and to feel like you don’t fit into either. And so I turned to two movies that, to my 8-year-old sensibilities, seemed to be faithful documentation of life in the Middle East. My fascination with Aladdin wore off more quickly along with my interest in animated features, but Kismet — a live-action musical with snappy dialogue and a classically-influenced score — is, admittedly, a DVD I still own.

If, as a teenager I had seen the movie’s trailer, in which its star Howard Keel introduces characters like “seductive Lalume, whose heart belongs to her Baghdad Daddy,” I may have understood that Kismet for the CinemaScope kitsch it is. Unlike the widely-acclaimed Aladdin, Kismet was a movie that never should have happened. When the musical opened on Broadway in 1953, reviews were delayed due to a newspaper strike. By the time the critical pans finally made it into print, the show’s popular appeal had spread and kept it running for nearly two years.

One of Kismet’s detractors was the director himself. Minnelli had originally refused to direct the adaptation for MGM, but finally consented in exchange for the greenlight on his Van Gogh biopic Lust for Life. But Minnelli phoned in Kismet while pouring all of his energy into his real passion project, and it showed. There was no newspaper strike to save it this time. The New York Times compared the lackluster direction to “the marching orders for the Macy [sic] parade.”

Without any of this context, I accepted the film at face value, as did the rest of my family. They loved Kismet. Three generations of us would watch it in my grandparents’ living room, despite it being as accurate a representation of our heritage as the Moroccan pavilion at Epcot. What’s more, it was a love that was kindled because of our heritage, rather than in spite of it.

Kismet itself was a form of propaganda, released during the height of the Cold War as a cultural salvo against the USSR. As film scholar Brian T. Edwards explains, both the lush, exotic setting of ancient Baghdad and the technological advancements of CinemaScope pitted American abundance against Soviet scarcity. In Kismet’s show-stopping number, “Not Since Nineveh,” the Wazir’s wife Lalume (clad in a gold bodysuit more Aladdin Sane than Ali Baba), lists Baghdad’s benefits to three uncertain newcomers:

“Our palaces are gaudier,
Our alleyways are bawdier.
Our princes more autocratic here,
Our beggars more distinctly aromatic here.”

Kismet was one of dozens of Middle Eastern films to come out of Hollywood in this era, with the “Middle East” often conflating (as Kismet does) various cultures from the Arabian peninsula, but also Northern Africa, India, and Southeast Asia. The common thread, as Edwards puts it, is excess. But Kismet also taps into a long-running history of Arabic representation by the West. In his landmark 1978 book Orientalism, Palestinian scholar Edward Said would codify this as both “a way of coming to terms with the Orient that is based on the Orient’s special place in European Western Experience” and “a Western style for dominating, restructuring, and having authority over the Orient.”

Part of this domination resulted in two common characterizations of the Middle East that are alive and well in Kismet, even if they are used as a “neutral ground” against the larger enemy of communism, and both trace their roots back to the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad. Kismet originated as a play by written by Edward Knoblock in 1911 (just a few years before the end of the Ottoman Empire), whose notions of the Orient came in part from the literature of his era — which teemed with Romantics like Byron, Goethe, and Flaubert who imagined themselves in far-flung harems and bazaars.

Arab men were branded, as a rule, as despotic barbarians and women as sexual trophies.

In turn, these authors drew inspiration from legends of the Middle Ages, spread by Crusaders who worked to counter the perceived threat of Islam. Such legends began taking shape around Muhammad in the 7th Century. Christians were quick to brand the Prophet as an over-sexed despot who used religion to justify his own sexual behavior. This characterization soon spread to all Arabs (including those who weren’t Muslim) as a means of sequestering their influence, resulting in Arab men being branded, as a rule, as despotic barbarians and women as sexual trophies.

Continuing in this lineage, Kismet could have simply been one more knot in the thread. But it was revisited in the early ‘90s following two pivotal moments in 1989: The fall of the Berlin Wall, which precipitated the collapse of Ronald Reagan’s so-called “Evil Empire,” and the Disney Renaissance, which would in a few years lead to the release of Aladdin.

American attitudes towards the Middle East continued to change in the 37 years between Kismet and Aladdin. With the dissipation of the Soviet threat, the Middle East seemed less exotic and tantalizing and — with events like the 1972 attack on the Munich Olympics, the 1979 Iranian Revolution and Hostage Crisis, and the United States entering the Gulf War against Iraq in 1990 — more tyrannical and dangerous. Women who slinked around the MGM backlot in bikini tops and harem pants were now covered up in live-action films of the ‘90s and early 2000s to reflect the oppressive nature of the veil.

It’s out of this historical narrative that Aladdin was released by Walt Disney Pictures in 1992. Initially, Disney had planned on setting the film in Baghdad, but the progression Gulf War forced them to fictionalize the setting to Baghdad-assonant “Agrabah.” Nevertheless, Aladdin owes much of its actual playbook to the Baghdad that Kismet had recreated a generation earlier: showing off technical sophistication with a groundbreaking style of animation, while appropriating the story of an Oriental “Other” with what Edward Said would read as the attitude of authority. The underlying notion connecting Knoblock’s Kismet, Minnelli’s adaptation, and Aladdin was that a Western artist (or collective of artists) was best-suited to tell a Middle Eastern story.

In Aladdin’s case, it may be that the story is completely Western. French archaeologist Antoine Galland produced the first translation of the One Thousand and One Nights the early 18th Century. What began as a multi-authored, at times sexually-frank collection of Middle Eastern folk tales from Islam’s Golden Age gained new life in the West as a collection of children’s stories. Galland himself added a few new yarns to the compendium, including the tale of Aladdin, after claiming to have heard them from a Syrian traveler visiting Paris (no record of an Arabic version of Aladdin exists).

From there, One Thousand and One Nights went through seemingly as many translations in the ensuing centuries, each one adjusted to suit the sensibilities of its respective era. Galland held back on topics that would have been too salacious for his audiences, and the focus on capturing these stories as fairy-tales not only meant that many details were toned down, but also fueled the sense that the Middle East was far less moral than its European counterparts. By the late 1800s, Sir Richard Burton (to whom Knoblock’s original Kismet was dedicated) would subvert censorship laws of his time by self-publishing his own translation, which over-emphasized the sensual details in an attempt to course-correct the decades of prudish translations and building an adult readership.

As Syrian historian Rana Kabbani writes in Europe’s Myths of the Orient, “The mental barrier between Christian Occident and Muslim Orient was upheld by ignorance and related myth-making.” In the case of One Thousand and One Nights, the myth-making was literal.

Disney’s version of Galland’s story continued the themes of male barbarians and female trophies into the fictionalized world of Agrabah. Much like the Wazir in Kismet, who coerces a sham magician into helping him unseat the Caliph, Disney’s Jafar misuses his magic and the magic of the Genie towards absolute power. The hand of the Princess Jasmine (who claims she’s “not a prize to be won”), would be a bonus for the Sultan’s evil advisor, whom Disney’s animators took great pains to over-caricaturize to emphasize his undesirability (one model for his facial features: Nancy Reagan). While both Jafar and the Wazir, by virtue of being the antagonists of their respective films, are demonized in part for their commodification of women, their threat is neutered by both men being rendered as impotent, in another instance of the West maintaining the upper hand over the East. “I don’t need any more wives,” the Wazir moans to Lalume in Kismet. “In fact I’ve already got more than I have any use for.” “My lord, no one knows that better than I,” retorts Lalume, knowingly. (Compare this with a Rolling Stone ad from 1992 with a T-shirt that read  “America will not be Saddamized.”)

If Kismet in the 1950s was about reveling in material excess, Aladdin in the 1990s branded itself as a quest for something beyond material gain. Disney Renaissance characters sought a more metaphysical sense of self-realization, codified in the first 15 minutes or so of each movie since The Little Mermaid with a main character’s “I want” number. This desire, spelled out in song, drives the rest of the plot. “If only they’d look closer,” Aladdin laments early on, in one such moment. “Would they see a poor boy? No siree; they’d find out there’s so much more to me.”

The lack of anything genuinely Arabic about Aladdin became even more pronounced when the show landed on Broadway.

And yet, like Kismet, there’s very little attempt to go past the surface with Middle Eastern representation in Aladdin. Musical numbers like “Prince Ali” play out with Broadway showmanship, complete with Kismet’s groan-worthy rhyming schemes. The lack of anything genuinely Arabic about Aladdin despite Disney’s much-ballyhooed attention to animation detail in this era became even more pronounced when the show landed on Broadway in 2014. James Monroe Iglehart, who originated the role of the Genie for the stage, described the Cab Calloway-esque “Friend Like Me” number (as choreographed by Casey Nicholaw) as “MGM meets Mel Brooks meets Bugs Bunny.” These overtly American touches glossed over the fears many Americans had of the Middle East — fears stoked by the same legacy of mystification and obfuscation that led to Aladdin in the first place, and fears that didn’t exist in the MGM era that Aladdin’s animators borrowed from.  

Most infamous among Disney’s missteps in representing a fictionalized Arabic country came in the film’s opening song, which paints the Middle East as “a faraway place where the caravan camels roam,” and heighten both the danger and romance in a place whose nights are “hotter than hot in a lot of good ways.” Howard Ashman and Alan Menken’s original lyrics also included the line: “Where they cut off your ear/If they don’t like your face/It’s barbaric, but hey, it’s home.” Following complaints from the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, Disney altered the lyrics (“Where it’s flat and immense/And the heat is intense/It’s barbaric, but hey, it’s home”), still leaving in the link between the Middle East and barbarism. It was one of the rare instances in which Disney altered one of its films following release, and one of the fastest turnarounds. Regardless, the change didn’t do a fig leaf’s job of hiding the other elements that remain problematic nearly 30 years later.

The whitewashing continued beyond the musical numbers. Aladdin and Jasmine’s features and accents were among those that were Westernized and whitewashed: Aladdin was modeled after Tom Cruise and voiced by Scott Weinger for the film — and 21 subsequent spinoff iterations. Nowhere in Jasmine did I see my aquiline nose (inherited from my grandmother, along with an untamed bush of eyebrows and hair whose frizz triples in size at the mere mention of the word “humidity”). As a child, I was blissfully unaware of this cognitive dissonance, and perhaps that’s why I initially felt inclined to forgive if not forget. Aladdin, for all its faults, could have a second life, much like other Disney films whose problematic aspects appear more clearly in hindsight. We could use it as an exploration of representation of its time, and a benchmark for the progress we’ve made since then.

Then, Disney decided to make a live-action version of Aladdin.

Set for cinematic release this month, the live-action Aladdin could have been a chance for Disney to be its own before and after around representation. In the 27 years since the original Aladdin, ongoing scholarship around Orientalism, a continuing dialogue around Arabic representation in Western entertainment, and the larger context of the positive impact the Middle East and Islam have had on Western culture (on their own terms) in the wake of early-2000s Islamophobia and the last few years’ worth of Muslim-majority travel bans, Disney still seems to blithely miss the point. Instead, to borrow again from Said, Guy Ritchie’s production only seems to further “the ineradicable distinction between Western superiority and Oriental inferiority.”

“Although Disney managed to pretty much get the casting for its lead character [Egyptian-born Mena Massoud], there’s still a larger issue at play,” wrote Krystin Arneson for Glamour on the casting of British-Indian actress Naomi Scott as Jasmine. “It’s not cool that casting is still such that anyone who appears to be ‘ethnic’ is OK. It groups people of color into one, larger, ‘Other’ culture… when what the industry needs, more than ever, is a dedicated effort to be genuinely inclusive.”

Six months after Arneson’s editorial, Disney admitted that it was using makeup to darken the skin of dozens of white actors who played extras in the film. Fellow extra Kaushal Odedra, who broke the story to The Sunday Times, stated, “Disney are sending out a message that your skin color, your identity, your life experiences amount to nothing that can’t be powdered on and washed off.”

I recognize in my family the desire to trade heritage and a sense of home for an MGM-budget American dream.

Many Arabic emigres to the U.S., especially those in my grandmother’s generation, might have found that image desirable. The one consolation I have around my nonagenarian grandmother’s late-stage dementia is, at this point, she is unaware of the ongoing presidential tirades against those coming from her home country (including our own family members still living there). While many immigrant families maintained their culture in the United States, I recognize in my family the flip side: A desire to trade heritage and a sense of home for an MGM-budget American dream.

Perhaps that’s why my grandmother loved Kismet as much as I did: A vision of the Middle East in which the Illinois-born Howard Keel was a convincing beggar-turned-emir meant that her family wasn’t too far off from being convincing Syrians-turned-Americans. Perhaps this, too, is why I popped Kismet into our VHS player after my high school dismissed us early on September 11, 2001. I needed, in the face of Arab-demonizing propaganda, the sense that my Arabic identity was closer to that of Dolores Gray and Vic Damone.

The face-value of a Western representation of the Middle East, according to Said, “is always governed by some version of the truism that if the Orient could represent itself, it would. Since it cannot, the representation does the job.” Disney’s response to admitting that it was darkening the skin of extras was to say “This is the most diverse cast ever assembled for a Disney live action production. More than 400 of the 500 background performers were Indian, Middle Eastern, African, Mediterranean and Asian.”

As a child, and even as a teenager, I could have accepted this cultural gaslighting. But reading Said’s Orientalism for the first time in college made me reconsider my connection to both of these movies. If I, as a Syrian-American, could have represented myself at age 8, I would have. Since I could not, I let Kismet and Aladdin do the job. I now realize it was a shoddy job.

In 2019, Syria’s infrastructure continues to teeter on the brink of collapse between ISIS and the Assad regime. What memories my grandmother had of her parents and their home in Saidnaya (a town just 20 minutes north of Damascus), are also all but gone. But at the same time, we now have access more Arabic artists who can represent themselves on their own terms. Omar Souleyman and his dabke–inspired music went from being a hit at Syrian weddings to headlining SXSW and collaborating with Björk. Born in Aleppo to Armenian parents, folk musician Bedouine (also known as Azniv Korkejian), even merges her American identity with her Aleppine background in a way that’s more Laurel Canyon than “Ya Leily.”

I have more options than ever to understand my roots. But I have to contend with the fact that these roots are grounded in America’s view of the Middle East.

I have more options than ever to understand my roots. But now I have to contend with the fact that some of these roots are now grounded in two movies that, while set in the Middle East, were truly about America’s view of the Middle East. And as interested as I am in Arab and Arab-American representation in Western media, I would be ignoring an essential part of that representation if I ignored the works we allowed to stand in for that authenticity over the past 1400 years — and how that has shaped our world today far beyond the culture we consume.

Is it possible to undo this legacy? For third-generation immigrants who grew up, as I did, through the ‘80s and the ‘90s, I sense this drive to return to our cultural origins in a way that is more authentic than the amorphous pastiche of Eastern identity that was presented to us by American corporations. In this way, the Middle East remains mystified, both culturally and theologically. The Orient is still a faraway place where the caravan camels roam. It crosses the sands of time in ways mysterious, foreign, and — because history is written by the winners — inferior.

A former European colony ourselves, the United States has, in an effort to reinforce its identity as a world superpower, co-opted Europe’s colonization of the Middle East, retrofitting it to our own mythos. While steps are being made (from Ramy Youssef’s new series for Hulu, Ramy, to Ari’el Stachel winning a Tony Award in 2018 for his role in The Band’s Visit and using his acceptance speech to talk about the years he repressed his Middle Eastern heritage), we still can just as easily bar other performers under the guise of an executive order.

The problem with this is that we continue to rely on theory and stereotype versus experience and consideration. While we ban citizens from Muslim-majority countries from traveling to the U.S., we just as easily recreate their worlds and stories for our own entertainment, setting up a film crew in Jordan more easily than a Jordanian film crew could film in Hollywood. The real terror of the Middle East aren’t the mythical dangers we’ve concocted for it; it’s that we might rely on this outmoded theory versus actual experience. The real terror is that we may not care enough to understand.

What Does It Mean to Be a Thai Feminist?

Some months ago, a colleague asked me for the Thai word for “feminism”—a no-brainer, one would think. But I found myself bashing my head against the English word over and over, because it is what I would say, even when speaking Thai; the loan word is simply more common. And though my mother tongue does have a word for feminism—satreeniyom— I’d never heard the term “feminism” in any language until I was already an adolescent in America.

That moment prompted me to return to the question that had been on my mind since I first met the author Duanwad Pimwana: what does feminism mean in Thailand?

When I began translating Thai literature five years ago, of course I was going to seek out women authors sooner or later, imaging myself at least that much of a feminist. I reached out to various writers and asked: which contemporary women authors would you recommend? When the name of the social realist Duanwad Pimwana came up again and again, I circled it in my notebook. First, I went for the obvious: her SEA Write-Award winner, the book that became Bright in English. I fell in love with the novel, and thoughts of Pimwana being a woman writer and the fact that I had been scouting around for one faded into the background. Then I dove into her various story collections, of which she currently has many more than novels, and a feminist writer emerged in my mind. In between reading the novel and the story collections, however, I had reached out to Pimwana and arranged to meet her in Chonburi, her home province on the eastern seaboard. As she drove me around her neighborhoods past and present in her pickup truck, we chatted about how few female social realist writers there were, and I asked her if she felt that she was a representative for women. “Say yes!” I begged in my head (and this before having read her short stories). She did not oblige. I did not know it then, but I would continue to struggle to make sense of her relationship to Thai feminism for a long time.

Social realism is an influential literary movement among left-leaning writers in Thailand, but one that has been dominated by men from its inception. Pimwana is one of the rare female voices standing shoulder to shoulder with male peers. To me, this fact alone makes her a practitioner of sameness feminism—the feminist approach premised on the idea that men and women are the same for relevant purposes and therefore should be treated alike—and her many stories whose primary concern is class inequality (a theme particularly prominent in her earlier stories, a number of which are included in Arid Dreams) a practice of it. But that is not all: Pimwana has written piles of stories that reflect on the power dynamic between men and women, obliquely or otherwise: the objectification and commodification of women, in particular the value placed on their physical beauty (which some of her female characters use as their bargaining chips), the subordination of wives, and husbands’ callous attitude toward their own adultery and violence are among the issues her writing brings to light. These are all matters that sit easily within the purview of feminism in the West, what I had in mind when I attempted to steer her with my leading question.

In Thailand Duanwad Pimwana is not thought of as a feminist writer. Rather, she is called a ‘genderless’ writer.

But in Thailand Pimwana is not thought of as a feminist writer. Rather, she is called a “genderless” writer because to many her work reads as if it could have been written by a man, a far cry from the romances Thai readers traditionally expect from female authors. What’s more, Pimwana doesn’t self-identify as a feminist, something a person with a more American sense of feminism has to contend with. That the English word “feminism” is in more common usage than the Thai word “satreeniyom” seems to indicate that feminism in the Thai imagination is an imported concept, but one must be careful not to assume that the importation happens wholesale (or that a version of feminism wasn’t already in existence), such that the discourse of American feminism, with its vocabulary and yardsticks of progress, will prove entirely illuminating; it isn’t always helpful to conceive of movements around the world as linear or parallel. In his essay “Disjuncture and Difference in the Global Cultural Economy,” Arjun Appadurai proposes viewing the global cultural economy as a “complex, overlapping, disjunctive disorder, which cannot any longer be understood in terms of existing center-periphery models,” with the effect that “forces from various metropolises” do not show up in a new society unaltered but “tend to become indigenized in one way or another.” In the case of Thai feminism, we have a degree of synchronicity with the West in some respects (certain legal rights) but not in others (the cultural understanding of feminism, which affects the lens through which class and structural issues are viewed). Still, the foreign term “feminism” should have tipped me off to at least a certain level of Westernization of the speakers who use it—and with that the concomitant class implications.  

Growing up in Thailand in the ‘80s, I thought life as a girl wasn’t too shabby. I took for granted my future right to vote (a mistake, I would later find out, but not on account of my sex), and took as a given my right to an education. I always believed I would have a career outside the home. In my 30s, I beamed with pride when, at a lunch gathering during one of my visits home, my girlfriends from elementary school (not a particularly radical bunch) and I took a poll among ourselves to see who had changed her last name after marriage; most of us had not, and all of us continued to use the prefix “Miss.” These were two new choices allowed to us by law. In 2011, Thailand elected its first female prime minister, a controversial one, but her taking office a milestone nonetheless. The country does seem to be able to tick some feminist boxes. These rights-based benchmarks have partly been how I’ve measured progress, even as I’ve witnessed traditional gender roles being taught and performed at home and in the culture at large.

But my story is, at most, representative of the experience of heterosexual women in Bangkok’s upper or middle class, the kind of women who freely use the English word “feminism” when speaking in Thai. Our numbers, however, are dwarfed by those of our farming- and working-class counterparts, many of whom live outside the capital—and these are the women of Pimwana’s literary world. I had my blind spots to confront. Those feminist victories my friend and I enjoy, like the right to keep our maiden names, are the fortunate products of the movement that has come to define feminism in the Thai public consciousness. It is no accident that Thai women have been accorded certain legal rights, formal, concrete rights we can put our fingers on: these have been the focus of mainstream liberal feminists, women largely like myself. In a speech given at Cornell University in 2003, Virada Somswasdi, founder of the Women’s Studies Program at Chiang Mai University, said of the main Thai women’s movement in the late 1960s: “The campaign, even though [it] contributed greatly [toward] allowing women a better status in society, was seen by many as an outcry of wealthy elitist women whose concerns were vested in personal economic interests… It did not touch upon any societal patriarchal structural problems or gender equality. Nor did it touch upon problems of low-income and rural women.” This lack of inclusivity continues to plague mainstream Thai feminism today. In a blunt 2016 interview with Matichon newspaper, Chanida Chitbundit, director of Thammasat University’s graduate program in women’s studies, stated: “Upper- and middle-class women present their own problems as the problems of all women…The fight that society tends to be aware of is the fight of [these] educated women, which emphasizes legal reform. One can see that Thai laws relating to women are quite advanced, for example, family law, rape law, and laws regarding last names and prefixes.” Chitbundit also pointed out that the political activism of poor women (who, in her ballpark estimate, make up eighty percent of the Thai female population) tends to go unacknowledged as a feminist struggle, even though at the grassroot level, women, more so than men, are the driving force behind efforts against policies that directly threaten the livelihood of their communities, such as those controlling land use and natural-resource allocation that leave farmers landless. As she put it, “Women in the lower class will say, ‘It doesn’t matter whose last name I use, as long as I have enough money to take care of the mouth and stomach, as long as I have land to make a living off of.’”

We must not look for a woman well-versed in the discourse of (liberal) feminism before we would call her a feminist.

The Thai phrase “matters of the mouth and stomach” is used to imply or explicitly state that such matters must naturally take precedence, and they form the immediate concerns of many of Pimwana’s characters, in Bright, Arid Dreams and beyond, despite their harboring bigger dreams for their lives. The expression served as my wakeup call: should my gleeful modern-woman moment with my school friends, sitting in an air-conditioned mall, feel like bourgeois frivolousness? I don’t think so, for the legal gains we have made can help establish a framework, but at the same time I’m reminded of the example of post-independence Indian peasants, who, as discussed in Dipesh Chakrabarty’s essay “Europe as a Problem of Indian History,” became participants in the country’s political modernity despite being deemed unready from a historicist perspective. From Chakrabarty, I borrow the idea that we must not look for a woman well-versed in the discourse of (liberal) feminism before we would call her a feminist. We must learn to share the mic with women differently situated than ourselves.

In reading Pimwana, I’ve struggled with mapping: how feminism gets mapped in Thailand, how to map or not map Thai feminism against its Western counterpart. But I’m coming to understand the author’s position better now: when we talk about feminism in Thailand, we largely leave out class concerns, thereby ignoring the main intersectional identity of Thai womanhood: the low-income female. Moreover, structural—as opposed to legal—gender inequality has not been the principal battleground for Thai mainstream feminism. Thus, the term “feminist” as it is generally understood in Thailand does not cover the lion’s share of Pimwana’s work. It is no wonder then that she resists the label. As her translator, I’ve come to view her stance, her work and its local reception as a lesson in Thai feminism, with all the limitations of the term and its possibilities for expansion.

10 Charming Jerks in Fiction

The “beach read” most often refers to frivolous page-turners, with an implied correlation between fast paced, plot-driven novels and the reader’s proximity to a body of water. While I understand the appeal, come summer I’m drawn to books with charming jerks. Call it Danny Zuko syndrome.

Riots I Have Known
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I have a professional interest, too: my novel Riots I Have Known is narrated by a sociopathic Sri Lankan prisoner in upstate New York. After accidentally triggering a large-scale riot he live-blogs his life story from the prison media lab, with aspirations of posthumous glory. To be clear, he’s a monster. But also, I loved writing his voice. (Reserve your judgments for later.) The narrator waxes nostalgic about his editorial stewardship of in-house lit journal The Holden Pen, his time as a Park Avenue doorman, and his youthful adventures in Sri Lanka’s black markets. His pretension knows no bounds, and it may not surprise you to learn I began writing Riots while living in Park Slope, Brooklyn.

Enough about me. Here are a few literary assholes to pair with your spritz and sunburn.

Money by Martin Amis

Money by Martin Amis

Steve Martin said a comedy should open with its silliest joke, so the audience knows what they’re in for. In that spirit, we may as well kick off the list with John Self, one of the 20th century’s great literary monsters. He’s equal parts alcohol, nicotine, racism, and buffoonery, careening through New York and London in the ostensible pursuit of financing a feature film. Self’s boorishness may test your patience, but Amis’s moral inquiry is deadly serious. Written in 1984, Money is a brilliant performance with regrettable relevance today.

Dancing Lessons for the Advanced in Age by Bohumil Hrabal

Dancing Lessons for the Advanced in Age by Bohumil Hrabal

Would you like to read a book-length sentence about an elderly cad relentlessly hitting on his fellow retirees? Of course you would. With this slim book the Czech master perfected his “palavering” technique of endless soliloquy, full of ribald hearsay and wince-inducing braggadocio.

Treasure Island!!! by Sara Levine

Levine’s heroine, a recent college graduate with dim work prospects, fixates on the titular Robert Louis Stevenson adventure as her personal bible: She vows to live by its “Core Values” of BOLDNESS, RESOLUTION, INDEPENDENCE, and HORN-BLOWING. The obsession leads to increasingly erratic behavior and much trying of her family’s patience. Can you love a book too much? Levine says YES.

Who Is Rich? by Matthew Klam

Who Is Rich? by Matthew Klam

It’s always refreshing to encounter a truly original jerk. Rich Fischer’s on the downslope of his career in cartooning and life in general. He teaches at a midsummer writing workshop in one of those New England seaside hamlets where everyone knows how to spell “coxswain.” His reason for doing so, besides the money, is to renew an affair with an adult student whose husband is a Trump-loving hedge fund manager. A lot of writers like to hover the protagonist’s finger over the self-destruct button; Klam smashes it repeatedly. A nuanced portrait of middle-age, middle-class failure.

Tirza by Arnon Grunberg

All Jorgen Hofmeester wants to do is throw his daughter a memorable graduation party. But his wife has left him, he’s lost his fortune, and his children are moving out of the country. This setup might induce eyerolling—more Updikean male suffering, really? Grunberg’s innovation is reveal Hofmeester’s narcissism while gently increasing his authorial distance, and to do so without condescension. This guy deserves everything he gets, but then, so do most of us.

Woodcutters by Thomas Bernhard

Woodcutters by Thomas Bernhard

The late Austrian has experienced a renaissance in recent years, and considering his novels’ high spleen, intense navel-gazing, and distrust of institutions, this may not be a good thing. But I’ll take it: Woodcutters features the world’s worst dinner guest ripping into Vienna’s creative set from the (dis)comfort of his wing-back chair.

Senselessness by Horacio Castellanos Moya

The Salvadoran writer (and Bernhard fan) fled the country in 1997 after book burnings and death threats, and this 2004 work is evidence of Moya’s dedication to speaking truth to power. It deftly avoids polemic and didacticism in capturing the political awakening of a priapic drunk. The protagonist takes a Church-funded freelance gig to edit an oral history of the army’s violence against El Salvador’s indigenous peoples. Thus begins a paranoid triangulation between the government and the Catholic church, with Pynchonesque mania and a final page that provokes both applause and professional jealousy.

Calvin & Hobbes by Bill Watterson

Hear me out. Calvin pelts Susie with snowballs, makes his parents’ lives hell, and proudly never learns his lesson. While he would most certainly grow up to attend Duke, we can enjoy Calvin’s youthful adventures. There was a late-career critical appreciation of Charles Schulz before his passing; I hope we can do the same for Bill Watterson, who—hot take!—bested Peanuts in ideas, formal invention, humor, and consistence. If you can swing it, the three-volume collected set is the best $100 you’ll ever spend.

The Vagina is Perpendicular to the Spine and Other Misconceptions of Female Anatomy

The Book for Every Woman

My mother bought books. She bought shelf-fillers, and the collected works of Erich Maria Remarque in ten volumes, which, for some reason, every middle-class family in Sarajevo owned and which no one ever read beyond the first volume, All Quiet on the Western Front; and thick Disney books that contained the retellings with pictures (a picture is a model of reality) of the usual tales—my favorite, The Sword in the Stone; and an encyclopedia of the world, which I’d flip through in disregard of the alphabetical order and collect the succinct information on, say, the Eiffel Tower (The tower is 324 meters tall, the tallest structure in Paris); and military histories of World War II, which I devoured, featuring battlefield maps where the black arrows represented the Germans, and the red arrows the Soviets, and they would rush at each other in an abstract landscape devoid of people and death (in a picture objects have the elements of the picture corresponding to them); and paperbacks of One Hundred Years of Solitude, The Joke, and Fear of Flying, which I wasn’t allowed to read but flipped through anyway and couldn’t grasp. She also had The Book for Every Woman, which contained—oh, I don’t know—tips and advice on good ways of being a woman. I read it all: recipes, crocheting patterns, household solutions (Have flies in your house? They are attracted to bright lights, etc.), and a section on sex and reproduction, where I discovered a lot of curious images and explanations. There was a side-view projection of a dangling penis and testicles, and, more importantly, a lily-shaped top view of the female reproductive apparatus: vagina, womb, ovaries. As far as I remember, the clitoris wasn’t part of that representation. I could not picture the whole structure fitting into an actual body, the angles confused me. For the longest time I thought that the vagina was perpendicular to the spine, a kind of a socket somewhere below the belly button where—I’d heard—a penis would be inserted, for which it would have to be—it stood to reason—perfectly horizontal. My early erections caused great distress, because my penis rose at an angle, and I could not imagine how it could be plugged in the socket the way nature and The Book for Every Woman intended it. I worried that I’d have to hang weight on my penis to make it grow horizontally, although there was no pressing need, as I was yet to reach a point where I would dare to declare to a girl that I liked her, beyond which horizon the next mountain I would have to climb was touching her hand. The wild and unexplored regions of genitalia were several steep mountain chains ahead of me. The Book for Every Woman only cursorily mentioned masturbation, the troubling joys of which I read about in a teenage music-and-sports magazine called Zdravo! (Hello!) where a letter from a young male reader, no doubt fabricated by the perverse editors, asked about the potential perils of self-abuse. The answer explained in detail how it worked—we picture facts to ourselves, so it was practically a manual—and suggested there was nothing particularly wrong with it, which was heartening to me, as the whole endeavor of genital pleasure had been sullied by Lućano’s kurac. But there was a small note of caution in the music-and-sports magazine: since semen is basically protein, ejaculation could lead to dizziness due to protein shortage or something, and those new to it—that is, those like me—had been known to pass out upon reaching, you know, the peak. I was eleven, maybe twelve, and I instantly applied myself to protein production; there was confusing pleasure, there was dizziness, but I did not pass out. What I ejaculated looked much like Lućano’s sluza, except it was semen. The Book for Every Woman featured a rendition of egg fertilization where semen, consisting of spermatozoids—spitting images of the puddle tadpoles—played a role. It was all terribly daunting—I had a body I didn’t know how to think about, let alone how to talk about—but I knew that what could be described could happen too. What was also described in The Book for Every Woman were sexually transmitted diseases. I read about gonorrhea (painful urination; yellow or green discharge), and about crabs (itching; nits in the pubic hair), and about syphilis (sores, rash). Syphilis scared me most, not least because I’d watched a Czechoslovakian movie in which the main character was a promiscuous-cum-rapacious officer of the Austro Hungarian Army who contracted syphilis, which eventually led to his nose falling off, and also dementia. I remember him tottering around noseless, going crazy, rotting inside and out. So when I discovered a sore on my penis, accompanied by rash on my limbs, I consulted The Book for Every Woman as per standard procedure, and became convinced I’d contracted syphilis. My trepidation wasn’t at all diminished by the fact that I couldn’t begin to imagine ways in which I could’ve been infected in a life absolutely devoid of sexual experiences. I hid in the bathroom, my tears soaking the paragraph on STD in The Book as I struggled to imagine a way to break the news to my parents: their firstborn son was destined to a syphilictic life of rot and dementia without ever having even held a girl’s hand. I looked for salvation, or at least a remedy in The Book, which suggested antibiotics, except that they worked only if taken immediately after the infection, and I had no idea how long I’d been infected. Moreover, antibiotics were certainly not going to alleviate the humiliation and stigma that came with being an STD survivor, the best-case scenario. When mixed with vinegar and water, honey can remove worms and parasites in your body, I discovered in the course of desperately browsing The Book, but there was no mention of how to cure syphilis. Eventually, as there are things that cannot be put into words, I had to make my rash manifest to my mother. She took me to a doctor. It turned out it wasn’t syphilis at all; the doctor told me I ought to wash myself more often, now that I was entering puberty. Thereafter I pursued sexual knowledge in the pages of Zdravo! (Hello!), while The Book provided mainly household advice. A flattened pillow? Put it in the sun for thirty minutes. The sun will plump it up.

The Responsibilities of a Book Critic in the Era of a Trump Presidency

Carlos Lozada was already a lauded writer prior to being awarded the 2019 Pulitzer Prize for Criticism. He was a finalist the year before, received a citation for excellence from the National Book Critics Circle, and was a long time editor before turning full-time critic less than half a decade ago.

His literary criticism for the Washington Post has covered a wide range of topics. Like most Americans, he has been preoccupied with politics and Trump since the 2016 election. His recent essays have covered all of the peaks in the Trump era political book world including Fire and Fury, A Higher Loyalty, and Chasing Hillary. Just days after winning the Pulitzer, the most important document released so far about the current presidency was released. As most of the world ignored the Mueller report or turned excerpts into memes on Twitter, Lozada got to work writing yet another thoughtful and critical essay on it.

I talked to Carlos Lozada over the phone about his approach to book criticism and the responsibilities of a book critic in the era of a Trump presidency.


Adam Vitcavage: What is your approach to book criticism?

Carlos Lozada: I was an editor for the first fifteen years in journalism and this was my first full-time writing job. I started it in 2015 mainly because I felt like such a poser editing terrific writers without having really written myself. Our longtime book critic announced he was going to step down from the role and I felt it would be interesting to try to tackle this and make it my own.

The thing I try to do with these pieces is to simply see what’s coming. What is interesting coming out? Start making your list. I did that at first. I felt I needed to review a lot.When I got into the role more, I felt picking big subjects I was interested in and then looking for the books that made sense to read in order to get into those subjects. That’s my approach that I have tried to take so I am not hostage to whatever books the publishing companies are putting out at the moment.

AV: I understand that feeling. So many books—I’m thinking of political ones—are all about similar topics with different spins. They’re all written well and researched thoroughly, but we are hostage to what sells. Because America is a business, after all.

You don’t have to like a book to write something interesting about it. Ideally if you dislike a book, you can dislike it in an interesting way.

CL: You can end up following along. There is not a lot of agency with that approach. Last year, I decided I wanted to read and write about truth. All of these people are afraid we’re entering a post-truth world. I realized there were recent and forthcoming books on the subject so I sat down and read five or six of them. I tried to tackle that theme together.

I’m also interested in how the right is dealing with the Trump phenomenon. I looked at a bunch of books by people on the right who are Trump opponents and the Never Trump crowd as well as those who bought into Trump right away. I wanted to understand what was going on in that world through these sets of books.

I didn’t anticipate I would be writing so much about politics when I took this job in 2015. Even working for the Post, I knew I would write some about politics. Luckily there are interesting ways into the political conversation without having to be just about the campaign.

AV: Reading those books from the Right, what are things you learned coming from that end of the political spectrum?

CL: The books of the Never Trump conservatives who very early on declared they were opposed of Trump being the nominee of the Republican party have a lot of principle, anger, and righteousness in those books. There aren’t a lot of grappling of their role in how the Republican Party got to a point where they could nominate Donald Trump. That was interesting to me. These are writers who, to some extent, were deeply involved in the transformation of the party over the last couple of years. There was no grappling with that.

I felt in reading those books, that was an angle I could write about. That’s what I try to do with all of my pieces. You don’t have to like a book to write something interesting about it. Ideally, if you dislike a book you can dislike it in an interesting way. Your critique has to be its own piece of writing. Readers have to enjoy that on its own.

AV: I feel like a lot of people think criticism is just that quick regurgitation of a piece of media because a lot of outlets on the internet are like that because they need clicks.

CL: It’s not really fun to write that way. A critique needs to stand alone. It’s a subject that is worthy on its own, there just happen to be books written about it. That’s how I have tried to do the job.

It takes a long time to do it this way because I end up reading a lot of books on a subject. It’s really tiring, but in the end I hopefully come out with something that is more interesting to the reader than if I was just reviewing each of these books individually and giving a thumbs up or thumbs down.

AV: Earlier, you mentioned about what the Right was grappling with since you started this position with the Post?

CL: That is something I want to tackle next. Especially now that we see the range of people who are putting themselves forward as nominees for the party or the new crowd that has been elected to the House of Representatives.

Parallel to all of that and those debates, you see all of these books coming out that are grappling with liberalism. Adam Gopnik has a book coming out in the next couple of months called A Thousand Small Sanities and I think it grew out of something he wrote at The New Yorker. It’s about liberalism and that is something I will probably do in the next couple of months: read books about liberalism.

It will be fun to do in parallel to the early portions of the 2020 race on the Democratic side. Then we can see how it’s playing out in the literary world and the political world.

AV: What subjects interest you in America now?

When Trump showed up, there were all these books on the working class. Suddenly the white working class was sexy for non-stop deconstruction.

CL: There is so much talk of class. When Trump showed up, you started getting all these books on the working class: White Trash by Nancy Isenberg, Strangers in Their Own Land by Arlie Hochschild, and recently Heartland by Sarah Smarsh which I really enjoyed. It became this fixation. Suddenly the white working class was sexy for non-stop deconstruction. There is so much more to that as a debate over identity. It’s almost as if it separate from the identity politics debate even though it’s all of a piece.

Those questions to be of identity and class are interesting and worth exploring. Late last year, I read several identity books that dealt with gender identity or racial identity.

The other thing I am thinking about is how Trump has made us focus on first principles in some ways. He’s questioning a lot of things people took for granted. Whether it is engagement with the world or the role of immigrants in American life. Books that help us think about first principles are interesting; like Jill Lepore’s These Truths is useful. Ibram X. Kendi’s Stamped from the Beginning is very useful.

Those kinds of books I find very useful right now as opposed to what craziness is going on inside of the White House. That is less appealing to me. I am glad those stories exist because I want to know what is going on. The Mueller report is the best version of that because it is all on the record and under oath.

AV: With the Mueller report, how did you approach that?

CL: I had very little time. It was the same week they announced the Pulitzer prizes so it was a very good way to stop basking in my reflective glory and get back to work. It went live on the internet on Thursday, April 18 and I printed it out to read it beginning to end. I wasn’t sure what I was looking for. Usually I go in with a few questions that I want resolved or want to think about.

In the end, I hopefully come out with something that is more interesting to reader than if I was just reviewing each of these books and giving a thumbs up or thumbs down.

Here I just read. I knew so many people, including folks in our newsroom, were writing about the details of it. I tried to treat it as a book even though I know it isn’t. I read so many of those inside the White House tell-alls that I could try to treat it as that to see what it feels like.

In some ways it had a lot of the same pieces as the those tell-alls that have a signature moment. The Mueller report has that. When Mueller was appointed, Trump says, “This is the end of my presidency; I’m fucked.”

The report has the official caught in the lie when Sarah Saunders says she really hadn’t heard from countless FBI agents saying they were happy James Comey was fired. There are the Nixon references.

The report felt familiar to a Trump era inside the White House book, but then it was just the authoritative manner that separated the book. Bob Woodward didn’t have subpoena power. Mueller was able to get these people under oath and on the record.

AV: Are there other types of Trump books you’re interested in?

CL: What I am most interested now are books that try to go deeper on specific aspects of the Trump presidency. Julie Davis and Mike Shear at the New York Times have a book coming out this fall on Trump and immigration. I am very interested in reading a book like that because it is far more specific and focused.  

AV: Are there longer or larger pieces in your peripheral?

CL: I’m not sure. I try to reinvent my job every few years or else it can get boring. I started by writing about as many books as I could. Then I delved into these multi-book essays connected by a theme. For now, I still think I want to do some of that. One thing I will try to do is read old books that are relevant to whatever we are experiencing now. A lot of great stuff was published before we were born. I might look back on books about old political campaigns leading into the 2020 election.

8 Shocking Heel Turns in Fiction

In the penultimate episode of HBO’s wildly popular fantasy epic “Game of Thrones,” teenage queen Daenerys went from one of television’s most beloved female characters to a woman hell bent on revenge and willing to slaughter innocents to get it. Dany’s heel turn—a borrowed pro wrestling term referring to when the hero turns villain—left fans in uproar, especially the ones who named their kids after her. Though the TV series might not have nailed the ending, when done well, this device can complicate a character’s narrative, subverting reader expectations to show there’s more to a person than meets the eye. These eight novels reveal just how dark a character can become down the path to heeldom.

Girls on Fire by Robin Wasserman

It is 1991, in Girls on Fire, when high schooler Hannah Dexter is befriended by Lacey Champlain, a girl who just moved into town during the midst of the local basketball star’s apparent suicide. They form a fast friendship that leads Dex away from stability toward rebellion and danger. When Lacey’s past catches up to them, Dex must decide who to trust and what she is willing to do to protect herself.

If We Were Villains by M.L. Rio

If We Were Villains tells the story of seven Shakespearean actors at the Dellecher Classical Conservatory, who act their roles as much off the stage as on it. When one of the players becomes obsessed with Julius Caesar, the group begins to crumble, leading to someone’s death during a reenactment of Macbeth on Halloween night.

What Was She Thinking?: Notes on a Scandal by Zoë Heller

Shortlisted for the Man Booker, What Was She Thinking? describes the burgeoning friendship between lonely schoolteacher Barbara Covett and the new art teacher, Sheba Hart. Jealousy ensues when Sheba incites a torrid affair with her underage student. In the public fallout, Barbara writes an account in defense of Sheba, and secrets are revealed—from more than one person.

The Golden Mean by Annabel Lyon

The Golden Mean reinvents philosopher Aristotle and his most famous pupil, Alexander the Great. After promising to teach Alexander, his childhood friend’s son, Aristotle faces his own culpability as he watches this charming and shocking boy grow into an unstoppable force who would conquer the known world, for better or worse.

Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn

This book-turned-movie is a bestseller for a reason. It is Nick and Amy Dunne’s fifth marriage anniversary when Amy disappears. As the police investigation continues, Nick and Amy’s seemingly perfect marriage unravels, exposing dark truths from both sides. No spoilers, but it turns out the bad guy is someone you probably didn’t expect.

The Secret History by Donna Tartt

In Donna Tartt’s first novel, The Secret History, a group of six Classics students at an elite Vermont college pull away from normality as they get wrapped in a spiral of deceit, obsession, and evil. Growing more isolated from their peers, the group becomes obsessed with the ancient Greeks, and in their attempt to perform a Bacchanalian rite, one boy is murdered. This novel explores the circumstances and isolation that forever changed these friends.

Alias Grace by Margaret Atwood

Margaret Atwood’s historical fiction begins with Grace Marks, a young, overworked servant convicted of murdering a household in 1843. Serving a life sentence, Grace claims to have no recollection of what happened. When a psychiatrist is solicited to interview her, more questions arise as she evades his questions. She instead tells the story of her life, and by the end, we are left asking who is really guilty in all of this.

The Girls by Emma Cline

Set in northern California during the 1960s, The Girls follows Evie Boyd, a lonely teenager who longs for acceptance. Soon enthralled by a group of girls devoted to Russell, the leader of a commune based on the Manson family, Evie gets involved with a series of murders committed by the group. The closer she gets to these girls, the harder it becomes to find herself.

The Under-Appreciated Feminism of “The Thomas Crown Affair”

A story: A wealthy man executes a heist and becomes embroiled in an elaborate game of cat and mouse with the woman investigating him for the crime. As their affair intensifies, she closes in on him—and with her, the law. In the end she must decide between her emotions and her principles, as he makes a final play to save himself.

How you present this story—especially its female lead—depends in part on what you expect of women. What does it mean for a woman to excel in her job, to try to get the best of a man, to weigh her feelings with her duties? Now that we may see another remake of The Thomas Crown Affair—a version starring Michael B. Jordan has reportedly been in development for the last few years—it’s informative to look back at the way its central female role has changed. Catherine Banning, of the 1999 film, was an unsung feminist hero. But what would her role look like in 2019?


The original 1968 Thomas Crown Affair is a man vs. society story, whose central question is: Will the man succeed in gaming the system, or will he get caught? Steve McQueen’s Thomas Crown is an anti-establishment, dark-humored playboy millionaire. He drives the story. Faye Dunaway’s Vicki Anderson is a young, stylish, bold (for her day) bounty hunter—the Hollywood Reporter review called her “aggressively amoral”—but her character is never in the driver’s seat. She’s a romantic foil for Crown. Seduction is her boldest move, but she ultimately weakens and becomes conventional, desiring some emotional truth in their romance. For him the affair is only part of the game—and he plays it expertly, pulling off a second heist, escaping scott free. She is left with nothing—not the man, and not the money she could’ve earned by nabbing him.  

Her story is: An ambitious ingenue gets played for a fool by an older, smarter man.

The 1999 remake is a love story, whose central question is: Is it a game, or is it love? Is their love true—and if it is, can it transcend the traps they’ve laid for each other?

From the moment Rene Russo walks onscreen as Catherine Banning, possessing the kind of swagger that would easily befit James Bond (ironic, as Pierce Brosnan’s Thomas Crown has about as much swagger as a dead fish), it’s clear that she is film’s the driving force and protagonist. She is not only an updated version of Dunaway’s character—she’s also well ahead of her time. She is successful, financially independent, cosmopolitan, and single in her 40s.

(Pause there: a single woman in her forties. Also, she’s childless. Characters like this are rare even today.)

She has the confidence of a man who knows he’s good at his job. She is—in short—an icon of 1990s feminism.

She is Crown’s equal in age and intellect. While she is motivated by the money she stands to earn by returning the stolen goods, she’s clearly doing well for herself already. She lives in an uber-chic wardrobe of Céline and Halston, resides in Monaco, and keeps an apartment in New York. She boasts a prescient taste for green smoothies and a trail of spurned boyfriends across the globe. She has the confidence of a man who knows he’s good at his job. She is—in short—an icon of 1990s feminism.

While Catherine far exceeds her predecessor in capability and complexity, what she and Vicki share is a rules-be-damned approach to the job. Both women scoff the law and use seduction as a means to their end—which, they both insist, is the money—and both are shamed for doing so. In the original, the good-guy police detective grabs Vicki’s arm to scold her for her tactics.

“I do my job,” she says in her defence.

“Your job?” he scoffs. “What the hell kind of a job is that?”

“Alright,” she says. “I’m immoral. So is the world. I’m here for the money, okay?”

In the remake, the police detective is equally righteous, just with a lower voice. When he’s about to slut-shame Catherine for sleeping with Crown, she looks him dead in the eye and asks pointedly, “Are you gonna be a cliché?” But this nod to the tiredness of their gender dynamic does little to free Catherine from it; she still lives in a world mired in debate about what the correct relationship between sexuality and power should be. Should a woman use her sexuality as an instrument of power? Or does doing so only further empower the patriarchy?

In 1968, it was very clearly the latter. Vicki plays right into Crown’s hands with her sexual maneuvers, and he exploits her. Their attraction might be mutual, but we don’t expect him to fall in love with her. Eleven years his junior and less intelligent, Vicki is no match for him. Even with the muscle of the IRS behind her, we never really expect her to win. Although he’d have her believe that she successfully entrapped him, that he was ready to return the money and cut a deal with the law, in reality he is luring her into checkmate. Predictably, the man wins.

But in 1999, things go differently. In this version of the story, Crown falls in love with Catherine—which, given her allure, is easy to believe. The film’s tension stems from our disbelief that she would actually fall in love with him. Her spiritual and financial independence, her strength of intellect, her unwillingness to settle, all suggest an unlikeliness to swoon. But as their luxe affair unfurls—a private jet to the Caribbean, a jaw-dropping diamond necklace—we find ourselves wanting Catherine to be swept off her feet, just like we are. (Spoiler alert: She is, and love wins.)

This is undeniably a victory, a step forward. We are presented with a mature, successful, independent female character, who earns the love of a rich man with her intellect and strength of presence. His courtship is so lavish that we willfully cast aside the question: Does he deserve her? In his therapist’s estimation, he’s a “42-year-old self-involved loner.” He’s cold, and worse—he’s boring. All he’s got going for him is his money. But it’s a lot of money.

So her story is: An intelligent, independent woman over 40 finally finds her wealthy prince. She is swept off her feet. It’s a princess fantasy with a feminist princess. And we don’t care who the prince is—if he’s a felon, if he’s a drab financier.

Catherine’s character is emblematic of the power-suit feminism of the nineties: a woman cut in the mold of men. She’s driven by professional ambition, money, and a desire for dominance. A woman like this was—and still is, in many ways—a revolutionary thing to put on screen. That a desirable, high status man is attracted to her strength, rather than threatened by it, is revolutionary. But Catherine’s story, on the other hand, reflects the boundaries of the feminist imagination at the time.

Nineties feminism triangulates Catherine’s character, fencing her in with three distinct limitations:

  1. That using female sexuality as an instrument of power is wrong.
  2. That in moral terms, love > career.
  3. That every woman wants to be swept off her feet by a rich man.

In the 20 years since the film was made, feminism has evolved enough to open up the first two boundaries. Today, we could imagine a story in which Catherine seduces Crown, nails him for the crime, and rides off into the sunset with her $5 million fee (adjusted for inflation)—and we’d be happy about it. But for that kind of story to work, Crown can’t be desirable. If he’s desirable, we will still brush up against the third limitation—that construct that is still deeply ingrained in our society: the princess fantasy. The fantasy that says that every woman—no matter how financially independent she is—wants to be coupled off to a wealthy prince, even if the life she has made for herself is undoubtedly more interesting than the life she’d have as his princess.

Today, we could imagine a story in which Catherine seduces Crown, nails him for the crime, and rides off into the sunset with her $5 million fee (adjusted for inflation).

Even if we updated Catherine’s character to have more dimension, to have a more emotionally rich backstory, or perhaps to be a woman of color—if we put a handsome and wealthy man in front of her, our expectation will still be that she will want him, that he becomes the prize. To reimagine this story in the context of contemporary feminism, two things would have to happen. One, the financial gap between Catherine and Crown has to be narrowed, so that the affair is motivated by more than money. Two, we have to have a better man for Catherine to fall in love with. If Crown’s character isn’t allowed to hide behind a mask of wealth, who is he? For Catherine to shine as an icon of modern feminism, she needs a feminist man to be her romantic foil.

Fernando Flores Recommends 5 Books by Women

Sometimes absurdist fiction is the only way to reflect on absurd times. The trippy alternate-universe Texas of Fernando Flores’s The Tears of the Trufflepig is strange, dreamlike, and darkly funny, but it’s also a commentary on immigration, mass extinction, late capitalism, and cultures on the margin. It’s been compared to Margaret Atwood, Hunter S. Thompson, and Warren Ellis. And, like Warren Ellis, Flores has collected five books by non-men he enjoyed and recommends.

Read More Women is Electric Literature’s series, presented in collaboration with MCD Books, in which we feature prominent authors, of any gender, recommending their favorite books by women and non-binary writers. Twice a month, you’ll hear about the five non-male authors who most delight, inspire, and influence your favorite writers.

Iphigenia by Teresa de la Parra

Iphigenia by Teresa de la Parra

This Venezuelan classic from the early 20th Century, influenced, no doubt, by the works of Jane Austen, is also a heavy critique on society, the roles women were expected to fulfill, and the government in Caracas as the time. De la Parra’s scope is wide; she creates poetic atmospheres, and unforgettable characters like her grandmother and uncle.

Angel by Elizabeth Taylor

Angel by Elizabeth Taylor

Since I read this about three years ago I think about the titular character, Angelica Deverell, at least once a week, as if she were a real person who once walked this earth, writing books. I am at once shocked and, against my better judgment, wholly impressed by her. It leads me to think about novelist Elizabeth Taylor—what could possibly have driven her to write a book like this? Whatever it was, I will defend this book until my dying day.

American Fictionary by Dubravka Ugrešić

Ugrešić is one of the most loyal chroniclers of our crumbling world. When she wins the Nobel Prize, those who have read this cutting, humorous, and ultimately beautiful account, will not be surprised. I think about this line a lot: “Open letters are a wartime genre, a genre of extreme despair, envisaged as a public denunciation of another, but in practice a public declaration of one’s own feelings.”

Positions with White Roses by Ursule Molinaro

Positions with White Roses by Ursule Molinaro

A few of you out there should read this and let me know if this is a masterpiece. Molinaro does something truly macabre and fascinating with the novel here. By the end of it I felt I’d read the story Carson McCullers’s evil twin would have written. Molinaro’s books are hard to find, and her body of work needs a closer look.

The Woman with the Flying Head by Kurahashi Yumiko

The first story in this collection, “An Extraterrestrial,” is one of those stories that there is absolutely nothing like, that takes the narrative as far as it can possibly go, then farther, until that very unique, stunning conclusion. Somebody needs to please make this more accessible, and translate her other works.

“The Crazy Bunch” Is a Poetry Collection About a 1990s Crew

When I heard the New York City College of Technology planned to host a Willie Perdomo reading, I knew I had to attend. Perdomo is the author of numerous poetry collections and children’s books, including The Crazy Bunch and The Essential Hits of Shorty Bon Bon. He’s received numerous honors, such as the International Latino Book Award and a PEN Beyond Margins Award.

The Crazy Bunch by Willie Perdomo
Buy the book

Before I ever heard or read his work, I knew all about his poetry and impact on NYC’s literary scene. Perdomo, to me, is basically a poetry legend–having performed on HBO’s Def Poetry Jam and at NYC’s Nuyorican Poets Cafe, spaces that value poets of color. In every poetry podcast or interview with writers of color, I can count on him being listed as an influence.

The Crazy Bunch is about an East Harlem crew during one summer weekend turned tragic. Perdomo revisits and recreates this 1990’s weekend with a strong narrative and the crew’s lingo, letting us non-East Harlem residents into a different world. A world full of joy, jokes, and tragedy. A world of looking out for one another, of trying to remember, and of trying to forget. The poetry collection explores being a member of a crew during the hip-hop era and how people of color often are—in attempting to remember—forced to face more trauma.


Arriel Vinson: What kind of crew was The Crazy Bunch, for readers who haven’t read the collection yet?

Willie Perdomo: It was a crew of us who grew up in the same neighborhood, we played baseball together, and over the years, we went to school together and basically grew up together in this neighborhood in East Harlem. Once the breakdance crews became popular, I think they evolved into more of a social club for those of us who did not break dance. So, all these crews suddenly started popping up as part of hip-hop culture in Manhattan and Harlem and Lower East Side and The Bronx and Queens and Brooklyn and so on. That’s the way it grew.

AV: How did this idea—to write about many summers ago in East Harlem—come to you? And how did you write East Harlem when you’re no longer there?

What makes recreating a story even more powerful is when there’s someone to step in and put their piece of the story into it.

WP: The second question is what I’ve been reflecting on since the book was published a few weeks ago. How was I able to maintain the vernacular, the diction, without being outdated? East Harlem has always been my focus as a place to set poems. The time I write about in The Crazy Bunch is specific as its imagery. It helped that I had someone from the crew, from the old neighborhood, ask me to write about that time. I think the language performs concurrently with the memory.

AV: Tell me more about someone from the crew asking you to write about that time.

WP: It wasn’t a literal asking as much as it was the kind of otherworldly asking. That voice on the other side is not physically present, but it still presented itself in my consciousness at the end of a documentary film about the making of an iconic hip-hop album that highlighted the effects of living in a war zone basically (HBO’s Time is Illmatic). And at the end of the film, I wrote the first lines of “In the Face of What You Remember” as if it were someone asking me, “Yo, what are you gonna write about?” More specifically, “What are you going to write about that summer?” Again, it’s not a physical person asking. It’s just a kind of voice out there.

AV: Your collection takes place during the drug war/hip-hop era. How did you and The Crazy Bunch find joy during this time?

WP: Part of it has to do with the extent to which we thought the violence was normalized and how it was portrayed (sometimes romanticized) in the music of the era. The joy was found in those ineffable moments where our innocence was not compromised. Laughter is what held us together, I think. A sense of the sublime, too. Storytelling, most definitely. You could break night in front of a story.

AV: You said storytelling held you all (The Crazy Bunch) together. Do you think that in The Crazy Bunch you all are still being held together? As you wrote, did you believe you were doing the holding together?

WP: I suppose so. That’s a really good question. I think the role that storytelling plays as a bonding agent, is positive–in terms of the folks that have been coming to the readings, people from the old neighborhood, and how much excitement there was when there was a book out there called The Crazy Bunch. There’s this one little book out in the world that kind of ties everyone together. The poetic documentation is there.

AV: That’s great to know that even a poetry collection can bring a neighborhood together.

WP: Yeah, even if it’s just two people from that neighborhood. More importantly, from a neighborhood that no longer exists. It’s like those voices from that world are appearing.  

AV: The first poem in the collection is a conversation with a cop, which most POC try to stay away from. Tell me more about your choice to explore these power dynamics and tell The Crazy Bunch’s story this way.

WP: The Poetry Cops are specific cops. They are poetry cops. They probe and interrogate as a way of triggering memory. But it’s interesting, right? How did Papo get to a point where he had to talk to a sanctioned body of poets? I became interested in the role of inquiry or photographs as a vehicle to spark a narrative.

AV: Though the collection reflects on an entire summer, the focal point is Josephine’s Sweet 16, which resulted in the loss of Nestor. What was it like reliving these moments of trauma? How did these memories come back to you so vividly?

I didn’t relive the moments as much as I reimagined an entirety of summers into a single weekend.

WP: The memories were isolated in their own particular imagery. Yet, the imagery was supported by isolated reflective statements.  As if the speaker, the You of the poem, was unafraid to offer commentary. He had seen enough to justify a reflection or two, no? I didn’t necessarily relive the moments as much as I reimagined an entirety of summers into a single weekend.

AV: You mentioned that you condensed an entirety of summers into a single weekend. What gets left out? What gets made new and created?

WP: The things that get left out are basically what you forgot, what you didn’t remember. I’m not sure there’s an intentionality in terms of leaving things out. As you are reliving this weekend, this is what you remember. In fact, this is what you remember in the face of remembering. To paraphrase the Langston line.

What gets recreated is the attempt at trying to tell the story. Sometimes you fall a little short because of the things you forgot. So, the beauty of it is that you keep attempting to tell the story. What makes it even more powerful is that there’s someone to step in—like Brother Lo, Phat Phil, Rosie, or any of the characters that pop up—to put their piece of the story into it. So then, it becomes a communal endeavor.

AV: I think that having those different characters lets the reader see the weekend from a lot of different views.

WP: Right.

AV: Tell me more about the loss in this collection. It’s addressed, but unaddressed. The characters avoid giving true answers about the night of the Sweet 16, and the words “suicide” and “death” aren’t used often, if at all.

WP: We never call it what it is even if we are in an era of name-calling. Diseases always had pseudonyms. Like Monsters, Beast, That Thing…  The characters do give true answers; they’re just not the answers you’d like. Telling someone what you saw implies that you’re really telling a story about what you didn’t see.

AV: Because this collection is set in an earlier era, it required you to use a different type of language, which also seems like a type of joy. Did this make the pain any easier to write? What was it like using slang/language you used to use?

WP: I’m not sure it’s as cathartic as the question implies. If you mean being free as a form of happiness–definitely. The language does not pander at all. The language is liberated.

AV: Often times, writers of color are asked to explain the words/language they’re using. But like you said, the language you use in this collection is liberating. Can you say more about this choice to use the language from these moments and make that language alive again?

WP: The ultimate power of living in a democracy is that you are able to use your language as you think, as a poet at least. That you should be in a position where the language doesn’t restrict you. In a book like this, it was so specific to its time and it was so specific to the memory, that once I caught hold of the diction, once I caught hold of the syntax, once I let the music of that era make its way into the way the stories were being relayed—I knew that I was sort of living in the book.

The ultimate power of living in a democracy is that you are able to use your language as you think. That you’re in a position where the language doesn’t restrict you.

There’s a lot of language there. This is a whole ‘nother lexicon. Trying to do that and not feel like it’s corny or obsolete or outdated, that’s a challenge. Where you start to have the real, more intense conversations is when you start dropping the n-word. And that is when it gets a little tricky because you know, how much to use it and how much not to use it. And how to use it in a way that begs a level of authenticity even though it might not feel correct to the correct reader.

But once I sit down to start writing a book like this, and I start bleeping myself out, then there’s no use in writing the book. I think that’s a great question and I think it’s one that’s worth more conversation about what happens when you’re writing in a specific moment. You see really good movies of a certain period, and the language is always specific to that era.

And of course, there’s also the language of poetry. There’s also the reference to lines of great poems by Black and Latinx writers that have withstood the test of time. The draw is always of bringing multiple languages into one weekend, and seeing if they can really “exist together.”

By the time you get to the “Forget What You Saw” piece, the longest poem in the book, suddenly, after all the violence occurs, it shifts into this abstraction of language. You can’t really verbalize what you just saw. You’re trying to make sense of it!

AV: Right. That’s something I noticed as well. I was like, hmm, the language is still there but it’s changing.

WP: It’s changing. And as a result of the language changing while you are reading the book, that means the book is becoming a living thing.